29.07.2009 - Review

Gilles Kuhn: hello Gaya Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Gilles :) Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Winston :) Winston Haystack: HI Gilles Kuhn: hello Winston Gilles Kuhn: well well first I want to apologise for last week I had a problem who made impossible for me to reach an internet connection in time Gaya Ethaniel: That's alright Gilles. Gilles Kuhn: so I wanted to use this last session before a break for summer to have your opinion suggestion criticisms and advices Gilles Kuhn: hello Birric Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Birric :) Birric Forcella: Hello. Did I miss anything yet? Gilles Kuhn: as I just said : so I wanted to use this last session before a break for summer to have your opinion suggestion criticisms and advices  Gilles Kuhn: and for once I let you shoot first [Gaya Ethaniel: I'd like people to have a few suggestion on papers relating to their claims/opinions that I can follow up after sessions if possible. Gaya Ethaniel: I spent some time digging up on automation and conscious decisions etc but cannot be sure they are related to what Birric said last time for example. Gilles Kuhn: ahah ask to have when it apply root of opinion and references ? Gaya Ethaniel: Just for my personal interests really ... if ok. Gilles Kuhn: well that can be done and I can indeed very often recommend readings Gaya Ethaniel: Great :) Gilles Kuhn: the Google group and the wiki can be great for that why not open a subject "I'm interested in that what do you recommend as lecture? Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed, we could use group emails more often. Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :) arabella Ella: Hiya Gaya, Gilles, Birric, Winston! Gaya Ethaniel: No one has yet to sign up for the wiki yet so ... I'm guessing emailing the group would be better? Gilles Kuhn: gosh sorry Gaya not even me? Gilles Kuhn: hello arabella Gaya Ethaniel: Don't think so :) Birric Forcella: Hi, Ara Gilles Kuhn: urgh sorry Gaya Ethaniel: Think you tried to sign up for the previous one which I dumped, sorry. arabella Ella: apologies on my part too! Gilles Kuhn: ara as I said : I wanted to use this last session before a break for summer to have your opinion suggestion criticisms and advices Gilles Kuhn: ah well perhaps send a Google group advice arabella Ella: yes and I must apologise too for not having been able to join you for sessions when you changed the time but I could not manage it Gilles Kuhn: yes sorry for that too we can too speak about time problems arabella Ella nods Gaya Ethaniel: ok then perhaps when any of you have time, please email lists of papers relating to decision making as per the last session? Gilles Kuhn: any suggestion (for instance we could use two different time and duplicate the session 1 week one time for example arabella Ella: not a bad idea if it is feasible for you Gilles Kuhn: I can recommend last book of Daniel Dennet "freedom evolve" Winston Haystack: HI ARA Gilles Kuhn: and too last o D. hofstader "I am a strange loop" Gilles Kuhn: yes I mean one week at one hour next week another same subject Gaya Ethaniel: ok I will look that up, thanks Gilles. Are you familiar with A R Damasio Gilles? Gilles Kuhn: two seminar per week will be too much for me arabella Ella: I enjoy reading both dennett and hofstader myself :) Gilles Kuhn: yes I am Gaya arabella Ella: damasio is another interesting philosopher :) Gilles Kuhn: well there is too the neurobiologist who is really interesting Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently I came up with him re: automation. Does he also argue conscious decision making is automated? Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry but can't do 2 per week here either. Gilles Kuhn: the concept of automation is tricky arabella Ella: perhaps we could have one week which is suitable for ppl on USA time and the following week (different or same) for ppl on European time arabella Ella: and see how it goes arabella Ella: then decide accordingly Gaya Ethaniel: Where are you based at arabella? Gilles Kuhn: I think that indeed our brain is material and thus you can say that process of decision is causal but the "I" is all the brain so to say that you are not free because your brain does the decision is for me a big sophism arabella Ella: in Malta on CET ... and you Gaya? Gaya Ethaniel: UK :) arabella Ella: ok arabella Ella: one hour difference Gaya Ethaniel: ok Gilles, will look up these books :) Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks. Gilles Kuhn: yes I was thinking too or we can try an hour who is suitable for us and Europe difficulty is that I think its possible only for east us coast Gilles Kuhn: Birric you are from usa what do you think about that (I dont know where you are from hay) arabella Ella: I don't wish to sound selfish but this is a group I really wish to belong too and the best European time for me would be around 11pm CET or 10pm UK time arabella Ella: is that too late for you Gilles and Gaya? Gilles Kuhn: 11PM cet would be great for me and most European arabella Ella nods Gilles Kuhn: I mean 11PM SLT sorry Birric Forcella: The times so far have been fine for me. Since I am retired, daytime is usually not a problem for me Birric Forcella: So I am the wrong person to ask Gilles Kuhn: for me it would be ok but I know a lot of people who would say it is too late arabella Ella: I personally feel most of us find it difficult in Europe at least to get to SL during working hours Gilles Kuhn: yes Birric but you know the hourly habit of us people better than us so ? arabella Ella: sounds great to me Birric ... and great to see you here too :) Gaya Ethaniel: 11 pm SLT or 11 pm GMT? arabella Ella: 10pm GMT which is 11pm CET (central European time - mine and Gilles) Gilles Kuhn: well suggestion let speak systematically in GMT from now everybody can convert arabella Ella: I think that works out as 2am SL time arabella Ella: ok Birric Forcella: Well, most US centered discussions in various venues are at 6 pm PST (Linden) time. Which is9 pm for me. Gilles Kuhn: 2 PM SLT time ara Gaya Ethaniel: I work from home so I'm more concerned about not staying up too late. I can do 2 pm SLT which is 10 pm GMT. But would need to log off really by 3 pm SLT. arabella Ella: yes unfortunately I have to miss the SL 6pm sessions arabella Ella: would be 3am here Gaya Ethaniel: So if we change back to 2 pm SLT, I can manage an hour session only. Gilles Kuhn: so what about 19H PM GMT ? Birric Forcella: As I said, earlier is fine for me. Gilles Kuhn: ara Gaya haystack? Birric Forcella: I usually get up between noon and 3 pm3 Gaya Ethaniel: 7 pm GMT is 11 am SLT Gilles. I think it's too early for arabella. ''arabella Ella nods ... yes it is too early for me'' Gilles Kuhn: too early ara ? Gaya Ethaniel: I think arabella wants it to move to 10 pm GMT which is 2 pm SLT. Gilles Kuhn: ok well what's the first hour that's ok for you then ara ? arabella Ella: but I dont wish to be selfish and understand there are others with different demands arabella Ella: yes Gaya but only if this is convenient for everyone else Gaya Ethaniel: I can be flexible arabella, just need to log off to bed by 3 pm SLT. Gilles Kuhn: Birric 10 PM GMT would be which hour in NY and which hour in California ? arabella Ella nods Birric Forcella: I'm still currently often handicapped by my house fixing, which I think will go on for a good number more months Gaya Ethaniel: 2 pm in California and 5 pm in NY I think. Gilles Kuhn: so it can be ok for us resident and for late sleeping Europeans like me Birric Forcella: 5 pm Eastern time is perfect for me arabella Ella nods Gaya Ethaniel: Winston? Winston Haystack: OK Gaya Ethaniel: :) arabella Ella: Birric I think you have your mic on Gilles Kuhn: ok so I see an apparent consensus to go back to 10 PM GMT which is 2 AM SLT Gaya Ethaniel: How long would the session be? 1 hour or 1:30? arabella Ella: yes Birric arabella Ella: I can hear you loud and clear :) Gaya Ethaniel: 2 pm SLT Gilles Gilles Kuhn: that's open to suggestion too Gaya as for now we have put one hour Birric Forcella: Weird, when I want it on it does not work. I have no clue where that mic is. Gilles Kuhn: yes Gaya sorry Gaya Ethaniel: ah thought we were having 1h30m but 1 hr is also ok especially starting at 2 pm SLT Gilles Kuhn: use the talk button in your sl interface Birric arabella Ella: Birric I think it is the talk bubble on the bottom right of your monitor Gilles Kuhn: I have put one hour but often we take more time Gilles Kuhn: which is a flexible formula that I favour Birric Forcella: I know how to turn it off, but I'm trying to figure out why it suddenly works. I can't hear a thing. Never mind. Ignore me. Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... can we then start at 1:30 pm SLT just so that I can grab the entire log if it does go over an hour? Gilles Kuhn: ok Birric np arabella Ella: nice to hear your voice though Birric :) Birric Forcella: I think 90 mins would be better arabella Ella: yes 1.30 would be fine with me too Gilles Kuhn: ara can you arrive for 10H30 pm gmt ? arabella Ella: yes I could arabella Ella: it would be brilliant for me Gaya Ethaniel: Great :) Gaya Ethaniel: That's 9:30 pm GMT right? arabella Ella: when do you expect to start again Gilles? arabella Ella: yes Gaya Gilles Kuhn: ok and that would be more ok for some Belgian that had the curious idea to have kids that I know.... Gaya Ethaniel: 9:30 pm GMT = 1:30 pm SLT ... Gilles Kuhn: yes sorry I meant indeed 9 H30 PM GMT Gaya Ethaniel: ok np :) Gaya Ethaniel: When is the next session planned? September? arabella Ella: do you expect to start again in September Gilles? Gilles Kuhn: so ara 9H 30 GMT 10H30 CET 1H30 PM SLT ok? arabella Ella: snap :) arabella Ella: yes Gilles arabella Ella: thanks Gaya Ethaniel: :) Birric Forcella: Well, it's before my time to get up, but I can try Gilles Kuhn: yes but I must confess I don't know when exactly in September arabella Ella: no worries Gilles Kuhn: and I have too to discuss time slot and days with the kira team arabella Ella: here in malta there are lots of social events evenings in august ... similar to spain I guess Gaya Ethaniel: np Gilles. Would you mind sending an email to group when you know? Birric Forcella: No, sorry, I got that wrong Gilles Kuhn: most definitely Gaya Gilles Kuhn: and true ara arabella Ella: I guess you will be up by then Birric Birric Forcella: 1:30 SLT is perfect Gaya Ethaniel: Not SL group notice because sometimes these don't come through to my Inbox. Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Gilles :) Gilles Kuhn: wow philosophers agreeing historical ! Gaya Ethaniel: :) Gilles Kuhn: I will send Google and sl notice arabella Ella: if I may suggest perhaps Gilles could notify us both by SL group notice and email as that would ensure we receive the info? arabella Ella: if it is not inconvenient arabella Ella: ty Gilles Kuhn: and wiki if I manage to understand it :-) Gaya Ethaniel: Can I sneak in another general suggestion? Gaya Ethaniel: :) Gilles Kuhn: sure Gaya arabella Ella: :) Birric Forcella: I also have a general suggestion: You should announce a bit more widely Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks. When we discussed an application of Kant cat imp last week, I felt we could have chosen a topic to focus our debate on, for example euthanasia could have been a good topic for that. Gaya Ethaniel: [with the topic agreed in advance of course] Gilles Kuhn: right Gaya that's correct but then we enter in more precise ethical general question case studies where we study the case (for example euthanasia) and no more the general concept and as this is thought as a philosophical and not ethical seminar Gilles Kuhn: more widelly Birric well I have thought of that as I want this seminar to be a seminar with technical and non popular discussion I prefer the announcement to be made in per invitation manner Gaya Ethaniel: I didn't mean to have such a detailed debate ... just something to focus our discussion on as it was about application. Perhaps, we could discuss a range of topics rather than one in that case? Otherwise the discussion becomes too abstract for me to be practical. Birric Forcella: Okay Gilles Kuhn: but well the problem is true Birric it is difficult not to miss interesting people so I ask to anybody of the group to invite people that can be interested .... and interesting arabella Ella nods Gilles Kuhn: ok Gaya point taken nothing impeach that Gaya Ethaniel: Guess my question would be "how do we make our discussions on application of philosophy more focused?" Perhaps others can come up with some good suggestions going forward. arabella Ella: perhaps it may be possible to consider positing the information in such a way to attract serious philosophers but on other groups perhaps related to this one? Gilles Kuhn: well actually the info is widely available in the kira group arabella Ella: like saying ... calling all serious philosophers ... etc Gilles Kuhn: well that ara is I'm afraid calling for disaster.... arabella Ella: yes? Gilles Kuhn: yes you know certainly how much people deem themselves philosophers... arabella Ella: true Gilles Kuhn: so my policy was voluntarily make clear that debate would be about this or that technical text Gilles Kuhn: there are other philosophy groups on SL with very few if any true philosophers in them ... Gaya Ethaniel: So what would we be doing next time we meet? Birric on Ethics? arabella Ella: if I may ask ... are you intending to focus more on decision making when we start again? Gilles Kuhn: well apparently there is a lot of interest in the problem of free will decision making etc so why not arabella Ella: ok Gilles Kuhn: but indeed we owe a seminar to Birric on ethics arabella Ella: great Gaya Ethaniel: Birric, would you be able to email the group with a bibliography re: your essay? Gaya Ethaniel: Before the session sometime Gaya Ethaniel: Or you could just add it to the wiki, whichever you prefer ... Birric Forcella: I can try, but there is really no good bibliography for my views. It's diametrically opposed to all that is accepted in philosophy. Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok Birric Forcella: In fact, also all that is accepted in conventional psychology Birric Forcella: I prefer to state my case on its own merit. I can make a bibliography of what influenced me - but most people will wonder why I included those books - since they were really only inspiration. Birric Forcella: Never mind, I'll come up with something Gilles Kuhn: so any other criticism suggestion etc? Gaya Ethaniel: ok thanks Birric :) Birric Forcella: I can detail my other writing a bit more. Wanted to do that for a long time. arabella Ella: afraid I cant say much more since I unfortunately missed so many sessions Gilles Kuhn: well but you surely can make suggestion arabella Ella: ok ty Gaya Ethaniel: If you need me to help you with adding more essays on the wiki, do let me know Birric. Birric Forcella: Yes, but Kant would be one of my foremost suggestions - Gilles Kuhn: for example we can invite too people not familiar with sl from the academic world Birric Forcella: And you see how far I am from him arabella Ella: one of the topics I enjoy most is the philosophy of AI related to Philosophy of Mind ... a similar interest to yours Gilles? Gilles Kuhn: not so far not so far in fact Birric :-) Gilles Kuhn: indeed ara Gilles Kuhn: even if my own personal recipe is to look on that from philo of science perspective arabella Ella nods arabella Ella: and I find ethics to be an extremely complicated topic ... too many variables, too many different contexts, etc ... plus often religious or anti religious sentiments which only cloud ideas Gilles Kuhn: you need to read the log of what we have discuss on kant and yes Gaya I have still to dig them from my saving external hd arabella Ella: yes I will look them up ty Gaya Ethaniel: http://philosophical-seminar.wikia.com/ - they are under Transcripts 2009 ara arabella Ella: thanks Gaya! Gaya Ethaniel: yw :) Gilles Kuhn: and they lack the first sessions thank s to bill gates and my lack of time Gaya Ethaniel: :) arabella Ella smiles Gilles Kuhn: so as time run short for me anything else? Winston Haystack: Bye Gilles Kuhn: bye Winston Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Winston :) Birric Forcella: Anything is fine with me Gilles Kuhn: btw we have the most furlosophy group in sl :-))) Gaya Ethaniel: :) Gaya Ethaniel: Now arabella needs to go get some furs too :) arabella Ella: yes three furries ... I am feeling a bit out of place now ... maybe I need a change of avi too arabella Ella: would not mind being a kitten :) Gaya Ethaniel: Well Winston or Dali aren't so you're not alone ara :) Gilles Kuhn: lol ara you're fine and if you want more avie I can give you a lot and give you a grendel lm arabella Ella: :) arabella Ella: ty Gaya Ethaniel: Alright, take care and see you all soon again in September :) arabella Ella: thanks so much Gaya Gilles and Birric and great to c u here again :) Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you! Gilles Kuhn: ok have all goods holidays ! arabella Ella: thanks and you too Gilles :) arabella Ella: bye everyone must go now